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Super Robot Wars X - PS4/Vita, 3/29 - 4/26 in Asia, English
(12-23-2017, 07:59 AM)thebigb Wrote: Like I said
- No Story
- Not Part of SRW Backstory
- Not used as an upgrade

Could you please give some examples?

If you’re requiring all of those things, then:

1:  all the series except Great vs Getter, but that’s beside the point.
2:  Getter Robo and G, just provide mooks.  Grendizer too.  Great Mazinger is used as a Kouji upgrade for god knows what reason.
3:  Still Getter Robo and G.  Did Raideen have plot, though?  I forget, it’s been too long.  I don’t think Daitarn did.
EX:  A few series, as EX was an Isekai, but I forget.  Goshogun was though IIRC and it was a debut.
4:  Getters!
F/Final:  Getters again!  Also Gunbuster and Dancouga.
Shin:  Trider and Dancouga.  Being fair to Shin, they at least were originally planned to have plot.  Being realistic and giving it what it deserves, that doesn’t explain Gundam Wing or Shin Getter.
Compact:  Getters once more!  Also sort of 0079 and 0080.
64: 0083 and The 08th MS Squad have none of their plot. They provide 1 ally and 1 enemy that becomes an ally, and like 1 mech for both. The three DLC Link Battler series as well. Also Giant Robo Gaiden: Ginrei.
Compact 2: MSG and 0080 just provide some secrets and reused asset enemies and two characters and some enemies respectively. Tales of Neo Byston Well is secret only upgrade but absolutely includable as it can only even show up if you connect all three games.
Alpha 1: Dancouga. Gundam F90 is there for a mediocre secret unit. Again, Giant Robo Gaiden: Ginrei applies. And why the hell is 0080 even there again? So you can get a Zaku like sixty stages in as a secret? Geez.
Alpha Gaiden: Still Dancouga. The rest of the series technically fit your definitions.
A: nothing that fits your definition.
Impact: See Compact 2, remove Neo Byston Well.
R: nothing that fits your definition.
Alpha 2: nothing that fits your definition.
Compact 3: Technically only Char’s Counterattack by your definition.
D: Mazinger Z and Great Mazinger.
Scramble Commander: Fuck if I know.
GC: Sasuraiger, Zeta Gundam, and Char’s Counterattack (you said “provides an upgrade”, CCA units are sidegrades, so ha.)
MX: Original Getter Robo. Technically Great Mazinger too.
Alpha 3: Weren’t Virtual On Marz and Ontario Tangram totally bereft of actual plot?
J: Dancouga, Combattler, FMP Fumoffu.
W: One of the Astrays was plotless IIRC, also Getter G and Getter Armageddon.
SC2: Macross Zero IIRC.
Z: Great Mazinger, Daitarn 3.
K: Mazinger Z, which is a part of the backstory but basically never comes up despite the fact that it really should.
Neo: Daiteioh. Mazinger Z, Great Mazinger, Braiger, and Goshogun effectively never matter to the plot either. And while I’m purposefully interpreting your words as tightly as possible, I’m going to ignore that for a second to bring up Iron Leaguer, because fuck you Neo.
L: Gundam Wing EW, Godannar’s first season, Combattler (and arguably Voltes)
Z2-1: Still Daitarn, Dancouga, Trider, and the first Macross Movie.
Z2-2: Still Daitarn, Trider, and the first Macross Movie, and also Macross 7/Dynamite 7.
UX: Fei Yen Miku.
OE: please don’t make me actually count the things that were pointless in OE
seriously please
Z3-1: Still Trider and the Macross 7 stuff, also Gunbuster and Fumoffu.
Z3-2: All the above, but Daitarn still has no plot, Phantom Arc and Alone Again are odd (so AA does get a battle but it only provides a temporary unit and an attack, while PA has plot but literally nothing else, no characters or units. How do you call it?). 3.0 probably counts too.
BX: Macross Frontier and 30, which actually hurt BX’s continuity a bit.
V: Fumoffu and Eva 3.0.

Quote:Only SEED and G Gundam are the only Gundam series that have gone solo (Seed: W,K,L  -  G: Neo)

If SEED is counted in W, K, and L, despite W having original and like 3 Astrays, K having original, Destiny, and Stargazer, and L removing only Stargazer, multiple UC only games should count.
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Speaking of Stargazer it was really unpopular huh? we got it in like 2 SRW games so far? i wanted to see Astray again
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(12-23-2017, 08:51 AM)Mai Wrote: Speaking of Stargazer it was really unpopular huh? we got it in like 2 SRW games so far? i wanted to see Astray again

Just the one.
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W was based on manga Getter Robo IIRC with Shin Getter, it wasn't Armageddon version.
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(12-23-2017, 09:25 AM)yazi Wrote: W was based on manga Getter Robo IIRC with Shin Getter, it wasn't Armageddon version.

W has nothing from any Shin Getter except the Getter itself, which came from Armageddon - its pilots are the Toei Getter G pilots. If you somehow missed that it was Armageddon Getter, don’t worry, Banpresto made it even more blatant by porting it’s animations directly to Gakuen and said “and yes, this is Armageddon” there.

Also stole some cutins and pilot sprites from D to finish it, though it did make a few new assets too.
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(12-23-2017, 08:24 AM)Mattman324 Wrote:
(12-23-2017, 07:59 AM)thebigb Wrote: Like I said 
- No Story
- Not Part of SRW Backstory
- Not used as an upgrade

Could you please give some examples?

If you’re requiring all of those things, then:

1:  all the series except Great vs Getter, but that’s beside the point.

Yes, I forgot about SRW 1. All series were plotless which was great.

2:  Getter Robo and G, just provide mooks.  Grendizer too.  Great Mazinger is used as a Kouji upgrade for god knows what reason.

An Upgrade is still an upgrade.
Wasn't the aliens from Grendizer? and the Entire reason the DC were created?
I need to go back and play 2.
You're right Getter doesn't do anything, then again neither does Mazinger.


3:  Still Getter Robo and G.  Did Raideen have plot, though?  I forget, it’s been too long.  I don’t think Daitarn did.

I have not played this game. I'll give you that.

EX:  A few series, as EX was an Isekai, but I forget.  Goshogun was though IIRC and it was a debut.

I have not played this game. I'll give you that.

4:  Getters!

I have not played this game. I'll give you that.

F/Final:  Getters again!  Also Gunbuster and Dancouga.

I have not played this game. I'll give you that.

Shin:  Trider and Dancouga.  Being fair to Shin, they at least were originally planned to have plot.  Being realistic and giving it what it deserves, that doesn’t explain Gundam Wing or Shin Getter.

Yes,  Shin Getter was also plotless.
Gundam Wing had some plot, enought that its not plotless Heero also had a Gundam Fight with Domon.
At the same time they made Heero a secert.


Compact:  Getters once more!  Also sort of 0079 and 0080.

I have not played this game. I'll give you that.

64:  0083 and The 08th MS Squad have none of their plot.  They provide 1 ally and 1 enemy that becomes an ally, and like 1 mech for both.  The three DLC Link Battler series as well. Also Giant Robo Gaiden:  Ginrei.

I have not played this game. [b]I'll give you that.[/b]

Compact 2:  MSG and 0080 just provide some secrets and reused asset enemies and two characters and some enemies respectively.  Tales of Neo Byston Well is secret only upgrade but absolutely includable as it can only even show up if you connect all three games.

I have not played this game. [b]I'll give you that.[/b]

Alpha 1:  Dancouga.  Gundam F90 is there for a mediocre secret unit.  Again, Giant Robo Gaiden:  Ginrei applies.  And why the hell is 0080 even there again?  So you can get a Zaku like sixty stages in as a secret?  Geez.

I have not played this game (Waiting for the English patch). [b]I'll give you that.[/b]

Alpha Gaiden:  Still Dancouga.  The rest of the series technically fit your definitions.

I had no idea, I throught Dancougar plot happened it the Last Game.
Anyway Alpha 3 does does do some of it's plot, so it doesn't count.
Point to me.


A:  nothing that fits your definition.

That's... another point to me, you know It doesn't look all that rare?

Impact:  See Compact 2, remove Neo Byston Well.

I have not played this game (This game is to long over 100 stages). [b]I'll give you that.[/b]

R:  nothing that fits your definition.

That's... [b]another point to me, you know It doesn't look all that rare?[/b]

Alpha 2:  nothing that fits your definition.

That's... [b]another point to me, you know It doesn't look all that rare?[/b]

Compact 3:  Technically only Char’s Counterattack by your definition.

I have not played this game. [b]I'll give you that.
[/b]
D:  Mazinger Z and Great Mazinger.

Oh... yech you're right.

Scramble Commander:  Fuck if I know.

I don't think it had a plot, for anything.

GC:  Sasuraiger, Zeta Gundam, and Char’s Counterattack (you said “provides an upgrade”, CCA units are sidegrades, so ha.)

I have not played this game (Waiting for the English patch). [b]I'll give you that.[/b]

MX:  Original Getter Robo.  Technically Great Mazinger too.

Getter Robo is part of the backstory, frist time we see the Getter Team. It's just after Getter Robo ended.
Great Mazinger is also part of the backstory and that's why it was with Mazinger Z.
You also fight Great Mazinger enemy units.
That is a point to me.


Alpha 3:  Weren’t Virtual On Marz and Ontario Tangram totally bereft of actual plot?

Yes, Yes it was. Point to you.

J:  Dancouga, Combattler, FMP Fumoffu.

Yes, in that post I did mention Dancouga and Combattler V and how this was the best use of plotless.
Fumoffu is an Upgrade.


W:  One of the Astrays was plotless IIRC, also Getter G and Getter Armageddon.

Yes, I'll give you that.

SC2:  Macross Zero IIRC.

Macross Zero had its plot, another point to me.

Z:  Great Mazinger, Daitarn 3.

Boss Borat is an upgrade from Great and not Z.
Daitarn 3 is plotless, however it plot was done in [b](off screen) 
Z3. So it doesn't count.
Point to me. [/b]

K:  Mazinger Z, which is a part of the backstory but basically never comes up despite the fact that it really should.

Still counts, Point to me.

Neo:  Daiteioh.  Mazinger Z, Great Mazinger, Braiger, and Goshogun effectively never matter to the plot either.  And while I’m purposefully interpreting your words as tightly as possible, I’m going to ignore that for a second to bring up Iron Leaguer, because fuck you Neo.

Mazinger Z, Great Mazinger, Braiger, and Goshogun, were all part of the Backstory.
While it didn't do anything, it counts.
Daiteioh, they went above and beyound for that show.. adding in a plot that didn't have one.

Iron Leaguer? that was in Neo?
Plot is part of the backstory.


Still counts, Point to me.

L:  Gundam Wing EW, Godannar’s first season, Combattler (and arguably Voltes)

Godannar S1 are part of the backstory for S2 to happen.
Anyway, you're right with Combattler V and Votes V, so point to you.


Z2-1:  Still Daitarn, Dancouga, Trider, and the first Macross Movie.

They did use some parts of the Macross Movie, anyway it was used in Z3.
Daitarn plot was used offscreen in Z3.
They did cover some Dancougar plot in Z2.2
Trider... oh, yech.. Point to you.

Z2-2:  Still Daitarn, Trider, and the first Macross Movie, and also Macross 7/Dynamite 7.

They did use some parts of the Macross Movie, anyway it was used in Z3.
Daitarn plot was used offscreen in Z3.
They did cover some Dancougar plot in Z2.2
[b]Macross 7 is part of Frontier's backstory.

Trider... oh, yech.. Point to you.
[/b]
UX:  Fei Yen Miku.

Forgot about her... point to you.

OE:  please don’t make me actually count the things that were pointless in OE
seriously please

Point to you.

Z3-1:  Still Trider and the Macross 7 stuff, also Gunbuster and Fumoffu.

Fumoffu is an upgrade.
Gunbuster was used in the backstory.
7 plot is part of Frontier.
Yes, with Trider.


Z3-2:  All the above, but Daitarn still has no plot, Phantom Arc and Alone Again are odd (so AA does get a battle but it only provides a temporary unit and an attack, while PA has plot but literally nothing else, no characters or units.  How do you call it?). 3.0 probably counts too.

Daitarn 3 plot was done offscreen, so it has plot.
3.0 is an upgrade.
Phantom Arc and Alone Again did have some sort of plot.

Due to Trider you get the point.

BX:  Macross Frontier and 30, which actually hurt BX’s continuity a bit.
I know... but it's still part of the backstory, if it wasn't then it would not hurt BX's continuity.
Point to me.


V:  Fumoffu and Eva 3.0.
They are both upgardes.
Point to me.


Quote:Only SEED and G Gundam are the only Gundam series that have gone solo (Seed: W,K,L  -  G: Neo)

If SEED is counted in W, K, and L, despite W having original and like 3 Astrays, K having original, Destiny, and Stargazer, and L removing only Stargazer, multiple UC only games should count.

Then you will just be listing every SRW Game that does not have UC.
Wing, was in L, so only W and K counts.


I said it was rare to have plotless series.... let's see how rare it is.

Has Plotless Series
1
2
Shin
Scammble Commander (I have no played this)
J
W (Shin Getter)
L
Z2-1 (Trider)
Z2-2 (Trider)
UX (Fei Yen Miku)
OE
Z3-1 (Trider)
Z3-2 (Trider)

I'm taking Mattman's word for it
3
EX
4
F/Final
Compact
64
Compact 2
Alpha 1
Impact
Compact 3
GC

All series are not Plotless
Alpha Gaiden
A
R
Alpha 2
MX
SC2
Z
K
Neo
BX
V

Well, then I was very wrong when I said it's quite rare to have a plotless series.

Back to the Question of how Pointless can be done well.
J did it the best, every other game didn't handle pointless as well as J.
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(12-23-2017, 12:06 PM)Mattman324 Wrote:
(12-23-2017, 09:25 AM)yazi Wrote: W was based on manga Getter Robo IIRC with Shin Getter, it wasn't Armageddon version.

W has nothing from any Shin Getter except the Getter itself, which came from Armageddon - its pilots are the Toei Getter G pilots.  If you somehow missed that it was Armageddon Getter, don’t worry, Banpresto made it even more blatant by porting it’s animations directly to Gakuen and said “and yes, this is Armageddon” there.

Also stole some cutins and pilot sprites from D to finish it, though it did make a few new assets too.


Oh... sorry, my bad man. That is pretty confusing, I kind of thought it was like the Alpha games where the Getter G guys got the Shin Getter before the plot of W, but apparently not... Cause Alpha 3's Shin Shine Spark also had the Armageddon reference, but I thought it was more of a easter egg...
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Iron Leaguer was technically in Neo, yes, but, well, I’ve bitched angrily ranted TALKED AT LENGTH about that in the past and will do it again.

Wing in Shin had no plot. Heero does random shit, fights you a few times on Earth, fucks off to Space, fights you a few more times, and then joins if you get his secret and vanishes if you don’t. Zechs also shows up like once or twice and then maybe joins.

(12-23-2017, 04:07 PM)yazi Wrote: Oh... sorry, my bad man. That is pretty confusing, I kind of thought it was like the Alpha games where the Getter G guys got the Shin Getter before the plot of W, but apparently not... Cause Alpha 3's Shin Shine Spark also had the Armageddon reference, but I thought it was more of a easter egg...

Be wary of inclusions surrounding SRW Getter appearances, because Banpresto fucking lies.

Alpha 2/3 is listed as Toei Getter and G and Manga Shin. It has Getter G from Toei. But then Shin Getter’s design is from Shin VS Neo and changed from its manga design (see Alpha 1/Gaiden) for literally no real reason, Musashi dies his Manga death in Armageddon’s Black Getter - and his face sprite, I swear to god, was reused in GC for his Shin vs Neo death - and he can be possibly saved by a guy from the Toei anime. Later, Shin Shine Spark in Alpha 3 is an Armageddon reference. And hell, as the Japanese SRW Wiki happily points out, Dr. Hell in Alpha 1 built an army of mass produced Getter Gs - isn’t that just the first few Armageddon episodes?
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(12-23-2017, 04:37 PM)Mattman324 Wrote: Iron Leaguer was technically in Neo, yes, but, well, I’ve bitched angrily ranted TALKED AT LENGTH about that in the past and will do it again.

I have not watched Iron Leaguer, but since you are making it debut in Neo, terrible.
Go ahead and rant some more.
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(12-23-2017, 06:24 PM)thebigb Wrote: I have not watched Iron Leaguer, but since you are making it debut in Neo, terrible.
Go ahead and rant some more.

Iron Leaguer is fucking amazing.  While I would hesitate to call it the best show of the 90s because of the competition, I definitely think it’s in the running.  Not only is it one of the best sports shows I’ve seen, it’s also a solid transhumanist piece in the focus on the Leaguers themselves, and it’s good at a lot of other things - fuck, it transitions into a horror show for an episode and does THAT well.  It is, as I understand, pretty well liked in Japan, though unlike Wataru it’s not as remembered.  Fuck, it had one of those typical shitty OVA sequels that usually are way darker and are almost all utter garbage... but even that OVA was pretty alright!

Its mainly kept out of SRW because of a central issue with the show.  See, Iron Leaguer is a show with a few pretty clear themes, and one of them is “the Wars being fought between Leaguers are pointless and horrible - and no, we won’t show them to you outside of grim flashbacks of horrible death, fuck you, that would glorify it - and foul play is inherently destructive to sports, so Leaguers should keep clean and not fight like that”.  Obviously, not an easy fit.  But SRW has tons of mindless monsters and aliens and shit that Iron Leaguer didn’t have, and at one point the cast DOES get into a fight against a rampaging war bot who could not be convinced to stop and was potentially going to kill the humans in the audience. (And in the OVA, post-redemption Gold Arm breaks out his pre-redemption pitch, appropriately called “Genocide Screw”, against someone who is blatantly ignoring the rules to beat players to death.)

Clearly, this show has a lot of pedigree, and should be handled delicately.  Give the Leaguers a reason to have to fight, and show their many, many, many ridiculous fucking moves, and everyone gets out happy.  Screw it up, and it will fall very, very flat.

Neo doesn’t even fucking TRY.  Silver Castle has seven main members, of which TWO EVEN FUCKING BOTHER TO SHOW UP!  Their manager, inventor, and all the other human members barely get a fucking offhand mention!  Mach Windy and Magnum Ace are blatantly missing moves (Ace has a Shoulder cannon as optional equipment and it’s ON THEIR MODEL, BUT THEY DIDN’T USE IT.)!  They don’t even get a fucking combo, despite the massive focus on teamwork the show had!  Which is especially heinous because there are at least five Lightning Crashes they could have used, and Lightning Crash is fucking awesome - spoilers for the first third resolution here - and we got none of them.

But, like, that’s just the beginning.  Show’s plot?  Gone.  None of it is mentioned.  It’s vaguely implied to be post plot, except it somehow missed the OVA because events don’t line up for that.  The Gold Brothers are in, which is great because they end up being amazing, but are all missing a lot of moves - Gold Foot has one fucking solo attack.  Watt and Amp being in is just fucking weird.  They’re 1 episode characters in an arc of notable 1 episode characters.  They show up in the OVA, but the show uses none of their OVA stuff, so that doesn’t matter.  More to the point, though, is that they somehow got in over the fucking Fighter Brothers, who are major characters in the last arc and whose absence is very notable.

Things like this really make me not like Neo.  There’s a lot it could have done if it wasn’t so busy sucking off Ryu Knight (Domon is literally the ONLY G Gundam character.  Even fucking Rain never gets named.  None of the returners outside of Raijin-Oh have plot, and Raijin-Oh and Ganbaruger get passed over hard because it’s clear the only Eldoran they cared about was Gosaurer - Daiteioh is even worse because we lack literally everything from the release info except Daiteioh, Perfect, and the dragon robot.  Where’s the battleship?  And New Getter has 2 stages of its middle arc, a first arc compressed into a single stage, and its last arc having the end lopped off and pushed into one stage, what a great debut.)

Seriously though.  Iron Leaguer is awesome.  Its debut is one of the worst in SRW history.  I may admire what Neo was doing in general, and I may understand some of its concessions (Wataru and Granzort fell through at some point, which probably explains why Ryu Knight is so fucking prevalent.  That’s why plots are decided AFTER cast lists, guys - X doesn’t look like an Isekai cast list because they got the series and THEN made the plot!), but I will absolutely never forgive it for that.  They took this and made it shit, and that is a black mark on the franchise.
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